Episode
Donald Glover on the Guardian Podcast
Referenced:
- All That Jazz
- Bob Fosse
- Straight Outta Compton
- Eazy-E
- Lenny
- Chicago
- Cabaret
- A Christmas Carol
- Timothee Chalamet
- I'm Still Here
- Joaquin Phoenix
- Dune
- Ben Vereen
- Prince
- Finding Forrester
- Talkboy
- The Muppet Movie
- The Great Mouse Detective
- Star Wars
- Back to the Future
- Tombstone
- Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade
- Stand by Me
- The Thing
- Alien
- Action Bronson
- Bully by Kanye West
- Dean Blunt
- Babyfather
- Edward Skeletrax
- Odd Future
- Soulquarians
Transcript
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We just got back from seeing all that jazz and we got Donald Glover on the Zoom call here. How's it going, Donald? Good.
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How are you guys? How are you guys doing? Doing good.
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Doing good. Well, what do you guys think of all that jazz?
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I mean, like I said, I haven't seen it in a while. But I mean, I still really like that film. I'm still really surprised that this film still works. Like, and it's interesting. Like, I feel like it's got real hard. But I like this film. I like this film.
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Honestly,
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like, I feel like it's one of the most powerful, powerful biopics I've ever seen. It was, I just have never seen someone like, because obviously Bob Fossey, the director of this movie, it's a he made the movie about his own life. Which is, you know, I just find it you don't see a lot of things where they're talking about the negative parts of their life.
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Yeah, I brought this up before. But I was like, yeah, like me and my friends were talking about like straight out of Compton. And it's like, what's
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funny about that movie is like all the bad stuff they
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put on easy because he's gone. Like
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he's dead. It's easy to be
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like, well, he was the one who said all these things. Yeah,
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you know, like we were we told him, slow
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down easy. You got to slow down. So like, but like, I think that's what's kind of cool about this is that he made, you know, anytime you have a bio pic. I mean, like, you know, that was the main complaint, probably with the Michael pic, too, is like, you know, you're not going to get into the things that are going to destroy the brand, especially if the brand is like valuable. And what I think is great about this was like, this is kind of like a very this is like an artistic endeavor, which I think is hard, you know.
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Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe you see it see it more with like visual artists than, you know, singers or people in the entertainment industry that they'll show their own flaws, like painters and stuff like that. But yeah, I thought it was really amazing. And especially, I mean, it was crazy how he really was just kind of accepted. This is my life. Yeah, here it is. It was really.
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Yeah, it is crazy that he died of a heart attack. Yeah,
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he kind of knew he knew it. He saw it was coming. I mean, it's like it's so hard to even see that negative part of yourself, like as a person, let alone like make art as that, like just to accept that and just be like, yeah, this is this is kind of my life right now, and I'm kind of going to choose this path to keep accelerating down it, even though I have the option to change. Well,
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I think you're only get good. I mean, a lot of I feel like people, specifically people who make stuff like you can't get really, really good until you understand and accept what you're bad at. You know, I think like that's what you're like. I'm not good at this and I have to work on this. And this and I'm never going to be like he says something in the film. That was great when he went with the the woman that he's cheating with at the beginning. He's like, I I can't guarantee I will make you a he said, I can't make you a great dancer. I can't guarantee I'll make you a good dancer. He's like, but I can promise if you let me, I'll make you a better dancer.
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And I was like, yeah, I was like, yeah, like that's some
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real artist. You know, I feel like thing where I feel like it was cool that he showed like, yeah, like you have to know what you're bad at in order to be good at it. And I'm and I was impressed by him also because I'm like he's he's a dancer. Like he did not have to be good at directing. Like
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that's like, yeah, like it's kind of crazy
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that he was that good at film directing, like like
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winning a Tony and being able to direct stage
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performances is like, OK, if you perform on stage a lot, like maybe you understand the dynamic. But as he got older, he got better at directing film and and he and it was very intimate. So like and like I feel like dance is like it can be intimate, too. I mean, I guess his style was very intimate because it was kind of minimal. In a lot of ways, but it's a very intimate art. And he was able to like hone it coming from like vaudeville and like kind of a showy form. Yeah, I
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totally I totally remember him.
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He was doing like a crunched up moves. And yeah, we were talking about that. It was so small, but then it also it looked so cool. And it kind of made a statement, but then also, yeah, it's kind of insane that he was able to be such a great director. Because a lot of people like myself included think that this is an amazing film. So to be able to be that good at, you know, that many things. Yeah, it's really
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crazy. But yeah, I also like to put it out at that time because he had directed like Lenny. So like that whole part in it when he's doing where they're showing like the stand up comedian bit and stuff like that. Like people have direct analogous. Like there's there's there's something directly to be like, this isn't a joke completely like this isn't something he completely made up. And I don't know who would able who would who would do that. You
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know, yeah, I mean, he maybe I don't know this, but I would assume that he was still pretty well liked. And then he just he's like, oh, yeah, I'm a great dancer. But to all my fans, I'm a horrible person. Well, it's
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like all the stuff he makes also, it's not like this. Like he's making like Chicago and stuff. And it's like he's making kind of like, you know, upbeat stuff. And when you can when he comes out with this, it's like, oh, this is like a like a right hook or something. This is like not what I expected it to be. I think he got really
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good at. I mean, like even like Cabaret, which is like has like clear, like dark undertones, but he got really good at like, you know, I just I don't know that ending is really shocking to me. I like I still remember. There's so many good moments in it that are like choices you make in editing and film, which I was like, man, this is a really hard thing to do. But I think he just understood. People, I think, like when you're just performing in front of actual people all the time, you get kind of good at knowing kind of what people will react to. And I was really I really like that about it. And and like just it starts with because I was I was actually talking to Danny, but I was saying, like, this
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movie's kind of almost like a Christmas Carol.
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Yeah, I can. Yeah,
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the three women in his life are like the past, present and
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future. Yeah, truly.
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Where I was like, oh, like this, like, you
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know, he has his ex-wife and his his now girlfriend and his daughter, and they're all telling him like, this is where you're going to end up if you keep, you know, messing around and he kind of the whole movie clearly, like, you know, is flirting with that. And he's just like, you know, I just want people I just want people's adoration in that first scene. Also, what's cool to me in that first scene is like there's so many different types of people. I don't see like if there's a group of people in the movie now, they don't look as disparate as the people at the beginning of this movie to me like I just feel like I just saw so many different types. Like you never see any more like a twenty eight or twenty nine year old balding man, like you just don't see. Yeah, yeah,
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especially trying out for like a
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like the day like a play. That's not how you typically typically. Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, yeah, you said
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this interesting thing when we were at the theater about Bob Fosse's how he's impacted dance. You compared it to trap music. Can you like tell me a little bit more about that? I
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was just like, I just felt like it was the like trap music lyrically. I feel like it's like impressionistic, but sonically, it like kind of boiled down the parts that you need of sound. Where it's like a very, very low sound, a very, very high sound. It's kind of like, you know, I mean, to me, like it's like dance hall or like my brother always says like dance hall is like the best music because it's the simplest ingredients. You just get good ingredients, you know, like with a cake. All you need is like the egg, the flour, the milk and, you know, vanilla. And like if those ingredients are good, the cake's going to be good. You don't need anything else. And that's how I feel like trap music is. It's like if you have a good melody and an idea and a good like in the voice and you have the snare and the bass and the hi hat, it'll be good. And I felt like he kind of because of his vaudeville, he kind of understood growing up. He's like, I'm going to do like very minimal movements. Like I'm going to do very minimal things when like ballet is all about out and out and out and getting big. And he really like brought it in and made it like modern. He's like, you know, like a very, I mean, like he was taking modern cues clearly. But it was interesting enough that like Michael Jackson like was like, oh, that's, you know, like, I'll do that, which I was just like. Yeah, I think you couldn't really escape that kind of dance style for a minute because he just had popularized it so much. And I feel like you still kind of see it in a lot of things, like the inward and the kind of this and stuff like that. I just loved how it's kind of small it is. It's not trying to make them bigger. It's trying to actually bring you in. It's intimate. Yeah.
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I mean, we were watching a dance show at our school like two weeks ago. And then, yeah, when I was watching this movie, the dance kind of reminded me of that, like all the contemporary dances and the contemporary club. It was very intimate. And I was like, oh, yeah, clearly it kind of comes from that Bob Fossey kind of style. And also, I mean, when Bob Fossey was alive, I feel like for a while he was definitely, he was kind of the man in the dance world. So that even kind of furthers how kind of crazy it is that he would make this about himself when he was so successful. It's not like he was canceled or something like that. So I don't know. It's interesting.
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Like I would love to hear you guys' thoughts because it's like, you know, from my point of view, it's a little bit like, you know, that sort of movie. Yeah. No one would make it now because I think, you know, he was like, you know, people liked his art. There really wasn't a mechanism back then to quote unquote, cancel somebody, you know, like people like new, like he says it in the thing. He's like, yeah, I'm sleeping with these like, you know, dancers and all these kinds of stuff. And I'm like, that, that wasn't, there was a lot more separating the artists from the art and back then, but also there wasn't really like, you know, it was just a different time. So like, I want to know like, how this film probably feels to you guys because looking at it, it's like, yeah, like, I'm trying to think of just somebody like, you know, if Timothy Chalamet made a movie like this right now, he's like, I'm going to show you all the stuff. Like, how do you feel like it would be perceived even? Yeah,
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I mean. Brave or just like career
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suicide. Specifically with Timothy Chalamet, I feel like, he kind of went too far off of the deep end with his unlikeableness when he was playing the Marty Supreme character.
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So it's like, if he came out with a movie like that, almost like,
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have you ever seen that movie? I'm still here. It was.
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Who was in that? I can't remember the.
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Well, that's the one from like last year. What's
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the guy's name? What's
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it about? Because I do know the title. It's about this actor.
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I can't remember his name, but he basically pretends that he's quitting his career to become a rapper. Oh,
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Joaquin Phoenix. Yeah, Joaquin Phoenix. Yeah, he's pretending he's
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like to become a rapper and he comes out with this movie that almost feels like a documentary where he's just doing all this awful stuff. And like, I was kind of thinking about, you know, that movie and people like being like, I mean, that was also still kind of a different time because it was farther back then. But I feel like now I don't think that it would be received well. I think it would be like, oh, it's like, this is just giving us an excuse not to like you kind of.
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Yeah.
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What about you, James? What do you think? I mean, I mean,
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people already this like we're like hating Timothy Chalamet just for his, you know, just for his kind of promotion of Marty Supreme. They were, you know, of course, he's playing a character. And then he was already kind of getting a lot of hate for that. So if you made a movie about him doing a bunch of horrible stuff, and it was like a biopic, like he early on about, yeah, like he and everyone knew that he actually did it. I mean, I don't know if I would be like, oh, I necessarily hate Timothy Chalamet. I mean, like I probably watched the movie just like this. I don't hate Bob Fossey. But I feel like in today's day and age, there definitely be, yeah, I don't think it'd be as well received. He definitely, yeah. I mean, he'd have a
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problem.
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Yeah, I think there is something
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to also, I mean, just monoculture, the way monoculture worked or how like, you know, it's the highs were really high. Like Michael Jordan did certain things. You had never seen anything like it. And he just didn't feel replaceable. And that's part of what plays into it too. It's like these people are able to do this and explore this because it's like very uncharted territory and there's nobody doing anything like that. I think the world now, people feel replaceable because there's just so many access to find like, there's another person with this kind of hair who sings a little bit like that. And it's, yeah, it makes it harder for people to, I think, explore their own thing. And there's a higher risk to failing, but also it's like the question becomes like, can you be good enough? And not even just, I mean, technically are you good, that's the thing about art is a little bit is it's objective. So like, how do you know if somebody is like, I'm good enough to get away with this? I'm good enough to like, even, I mean, not even I'm saying like in your personal, I mean, just this piece of art, is it good enough to get away with the fact that it's hard to like watch or like all that kind of stuff? That's what I think is kind of also in the film a little bit where like his ex-wife is like, it's the best art you've ever done. But it didn't feel
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bad to me. Like it didn't feel
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like this guy's patting himself on the back. It felt more like I have to give up everything in order to be number one and is that worth it? Because I personally, I'm not, I don't believe, I don't believe you have to suffer for your art. I think you have to work hard, but I'm not a big like, yeah, you gotta be, you gotta cut off your left ear, man.
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You know,
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people gotta know that this is not a game. Like I'm like, it is, you know, just work hard and discover stuff and be creative. But I think there is a part of being famous and a part of celebrity that is also like, you know, not, you're giving up something. And he was definitely like, felt like this character at the very least was addicted to adoration. Yeah.
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I mean, it also felt like he's such a, like a workaholic almost, that it's like he's just always wanting to do his work, but he's given up everything for his work, basically, but he's like spent so much time on his work that he doesn't even like his job anymore, basically. He's like, so
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it's like he has nothing in life that he's even like,
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Looking forward to. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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And then also I feel, I feel like what you just said kind of brings up, you know, something that I thought is interesting. I feel like today, a lot of like the person gets canceled, like people don't like the person anymore, but then everyone still listens to their music or watches their movies and stuff. Like, you know, D4VD, I mean, he's, you know, going to jail for murder and, but his, his
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music set is still super popular and like all these
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people, like they get canceled, but like no one's going to stop watching Dune. So that's a little bit of an interesting, yeah. That is,
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no, that's true. People aren't
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necessarily, because also I feel like, you know, some people, I don't want to say it as a blanket statement, but also there is sign of, you know, some good in separating the artists from the art because, you know, just because someone's a Republican or someone's a Democrat, doesn't mean that the other side can't appreciate their art. Like that's a good part about art in general is that kind of everyone can hopefully enjoy it. That's
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what I've kind of always liked about it was that it connects people and you need to, in order for, for me anyway, in order for art or some project to work, you have to put a piece of yourself in it. Like you have to see a reflection in it. So like even if you don't like the person, you can be like, oh, like this thing touched me. Like this thing kind of, or like this thing, I understand that sounded cool. And at the very least, I can learn from that and use that to do what I think is cool and or what I think is right. Like I think that's what's kind of necessary a little bit. And I feel like, I don't know, like connection is kind of like, because what was interesting about that movie too is like, you know, they show so many times he woke up and just like said, like it's showtime, like kind of thing. Like he's like it's showtime. And I'm like, this person's putting on a show every day. Like
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he's not really connecting
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with anybody. Like he's not, it's not, it's all like a show to get the things that he needs that are kind of not that, not as deep as, you know, he wants, you know, his best relationship in the movie is with death.
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Yeah, yeah, he's flirting with death the entire time.
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Yeah, totally. And then even at the end of his life,
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he's like, I don't want to die. But then he also clearly doesn't necessarily want to live. So it's kind of, it's kind of just like, you know, I don't really want to die. I don't really want to live. I'm just kind of fleeting, but I want to keep living. I just want to do what I do now, but I don't really care about the outcome.
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Well, that's, he's not, yeah. Well, that's what I think like death represented in the movie because he was obviously still alive when he was making the movie. So it was kind of like, what I felt is that death and life was like, death was, am I going to keep going down the path that I'm on and keep like amplifying and partying and doing all these things? Or I can choose life and kind of change my ways. So that's what I kind of felt with the life and death symbolism too. Yeah.
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There might also be some like, I think this word gets tossed around too much, but like some slight, like narcissism. And I don't mean that in like, oh yeah, he's an evil narcissist. I mean, just like in an artistic way of just like, I want to know what it's like when I die. You know,
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like, I don't want to see it. You know, like kind of like where
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he's, he's, he wanted to see what it would be like, how people felt, how, you know, like, and you only get to do that if you make that happen, you know, like,
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there's part of that too. Well, I
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think there's a line in the movie at the end where they're like, when he's doing the whole dance thing, the whole number at the end, where he's like, oh, look at your girlfriend. She's moved on. She's with another guy. So it's like, it's almost, he spent all this life not making good relationships. It's like when he dies, he can't expect for anyone to, you know, dwell and remember him for so long like that.
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Every, all of the, yeah, he was like in the audience and
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he's that guy's like, this must have caused a fortune. Like all of them, all the relationships are kind of like not great. And the guy was like, yeah, and you know, the Ben Vereen characters like expressing like, yeah, like he was never anybody's friend and like, you know, like all these kinds of things where he's like, I'm, I got really good at playing the game, but like, am I, am I supposed to want more? And like, yeah, cause it is interesting that, that whole section at the end, like the dances, the three dances, I was like, you know, he's like, she's singing like, nobody wants you when you're old and gray. Like, it's like, he's still chasing something that is naturally fleeting.
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You know, like all these things naturally are leave. And all of his relationships, like clearly he's able to make an impression on a person and kind of captivate them, but only for like a short moment because
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he's not able to like,
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you know, put to have a meaningful relationship or someone will like actually care about him after he's dead, it's more just like, he has a lot of charisma and, but he's not able to kind of bridge the gap between his love of dance and his able to like actually make a meaningful connection. It seems like. It
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might be, you know, it is like, I've read about like about Prince and like Prince felt way more comfortable in the studio making music. He's like, he didn't feel comfortable talking to people or like being around people. Like his engineer talks about like, he just felt so comfortable making music. And that's what this movie kind of felt like where it's like, you know, he clearly also had the tools to make movies that didn't have, you know, dance in them
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necessarily, but he was like, this is
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how I can express myself really well. And yeah,
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that last, that last scene, like
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there's very few movies where at the last 10 minutes, 15 minutes, you want to see like a dance number and be like kind of captivated and
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like shocked. I mean,
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like, because that ending always shocks me. That ending always feels like, man, like, I don't know, like I really like it. Cause I'm just like, it is shocking even though you kind of know what's going to happen, but like the silence and the zipper sound always kind of shocking to me.
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Yeah, it feels like, it feels like abrupt too. Like,
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you know. He's just dying like everyone else, you know, he's just
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in plastic. But he's not, yeah. It's not to borrow a phrase from the Sopranos. It's not cinematic. Yeah.
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It's like, it's not like glorious. You expect something to
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happen and it fades to white and then it shows like the funeral. It's like, no. He's just like,
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you know. Yeah, and then everyone's moved on cause he chose to live that life. I mean, clearly out of the impact on dance as we still see all these moves and stuff today, but I would like to hear from like the perspective of someone who knew him in real life. Like how similar I guess was he to this? And like, I would hope that, you know, people mourn to him after he died. I hope that everyone did just move on right away. But at the same time, if he chose to live his life that way, maybe that's how it was. No,
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no. I think what's interesting to me is about seeing you guys see this. It's like, you guys, wow, this is like a good movie. I like this movie. But like, he wasn't a small figure in the industry. He was a big figure. That's what's cool about it to me. It's like the movie
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kind of speaks
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to like, no matter how big you are. Like, I think it's in like the book meditations that like Marcus Aurelius, he talks about like, I can't remember the actual saying it's something like, no matter, like all men's statues eventually crumble. It's like, no matter how big you are, cause he was a big deal. Like you guys didn't know about him until the movie. Yeah, no,
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yeah, I never looked at him. Yeah, but he won
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Oscars. Like he was, he was a big deal. He made a bunch of stuff and like people loved him. But it like, it doesn't matter. Like at the end of the day, he's wrapped in plastic, you know, and it makes you think like, yeah, like why are you doing this? Just to like one day be forgotten. You wouldn't, your daughter wouldn't have forgotten you. Yeah.
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Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess for, I mean, like I can't necessarily think of some examples right now, but I know that there's obviously a lot of movies and a lot of people who are like so dedicated to their craft and are really amazing at it. But then the pitfalls a lot of the time is that they don't have like the best relationships. And honestly, I feel like at the end of the day, I mean, like you'll be remembered like for your craft for like a certain amount of time. But you know, everything still moves on. Like you're just another human. It's like the world's on stopping for you. So, you know, it's, for me, I feel like it would be better to make an impact through like, like touching other people personally rather than just the facade of me. Mm-hmm.
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Yeah. Well,
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you know, in the movie, one of the things about the Guardian podcast is that sometimes when we go to see R-rated movies, there's an awkward moment in the movie. And that's, you know,
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one of the hardest parts of the Guardian podcast. And
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I remember there is a scene in all that jazz where there's a pretty graphic sexual moment with Bob Fosse and I looked over
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at James and he would not
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look back at me. I was just trying to get him to laugh.
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But my
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question to you is, when you were a kid, did you ever have, when your mom took you to go see an R-rated movie or something like that, did you ever have an awkward moment like not knowing what the movie was and sitting next to Bob? Oh my God.
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I have the best one.
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I have a good one. Okay, so
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I was like, you know, total, you know, I just liked movies. Like I really loved movies and I loved like media, but there was a cool film that was coming out that just my friends were talking about it. And I just saw, and I had just read about it. And it had all these good reviews. It was called Election. And it had starred Matthew Broderick. Have you guys seen it? Of course.
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I love elections.
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So, so I'm like, I beg, I beg my mom. Like I'm like, I want to see this movie. I believe it's rated R. And I'm like, I really want to see this movie. It's supposed to be great. It's supposed to be got all these good reviews and my mom reads the newspaper. And my mom's like, you know, she's like religious.
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So like she's like, she's like, okay.
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And but she's like, but, you know, everybody's got to go because we don't, you know, like we don't
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like, like we only share one car and all that kind of stuff. It's like everybody's
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got to go. So it's like me, my brother, my sister, and my mom. And I think it was my sister too. Like, and we all go into this rated R movie and watch election. And there's a scene where basically I forgot who, but is someone's going down on this guy. And it's
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pretty, it's pretty intense. And I remember just
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like freezing. And like me and my mom are just sitting there during this. And I like lean over to my mom and I go, I'm sorry.
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I'm like, I'm sorry.
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She didn't say anything.
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She didn't say anything. It was like almost like it didn't happen.
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But I was like, I can't believe I'm sitting here with my mom watching this. But it was a great movie. I do
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like that movie. Yeah, I have, I always, like I watch a lot of movies with my dad, like before we go to bed, but he always falls asleep like really, really fast. And then I just end up watching the whole thing normally, but he falls asleep. But then like a couple of months ago, I chose to watch the R movie. this movie that I just heard about. Like I didn't know at all what it was about. And then for like straight like 30 minutes, it was just literally just like scenes of this couple of having sex for probably like 35 minutes. And then I was just like trying to not make any noise, just like sitting there like in the corner of the couch. And then I like got up to look over at my dad and then he was just fast asleep. And then I was like, oh, thank God. And
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yeah, and then it's really it's, that's the
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great part about how easily falls asleep because he's been asleep for a lot of moments that could have been really awkward.
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I feel like, you know, it's interesting. Cause like, you know, you guys have more access to a lot of media, but
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it was very, it was, I
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saw like war the roses with my parents. Like I saw a delirious. Like there were so many things I think in the 80s where that would be by today's standards, it's very inappropriate to
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have a kid around that people
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just didn't see. Like they think about it. There's a, there's this video you should find on like YouTube where they'd like interview people after seeing alien that when it just came out,
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have you seen that one? Well, I saw the dad who took his two kids.
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Yeah, like his movie, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the kid is clearly shell shocked. Like
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clearly shell, shell shocked. It's like, yeah, this is like super
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intense movie to show like a 10
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year old. I mean, that's seen where the alien crawls out of the stomach. Like I watched that probably like a year or two ago. I mean, that's still like, you know, way more disgusting than a lot of the movies that I've seen today. Like, yeah, it's way
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more visceral. And the best part about that to me is like the dad goes like, he's like the interview is like, why did you bring your son to this? And he goes, I just want to show him something and be like, yeah, something like that could happen.
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Like that's
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my favorite part. It's like he didn't even quell his fears. He's like, that could happen tonight. They're gonna leave the bust out
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of your stomach tonight. That's gonna make him so much more scared.
-
Yeah.
-
I can't believe that. No, yeah.
-
But yeah. I think it's hard because like movies
-
play such a, like especially theaters like play a big role in the culture. And now it's kind of like all movies are basically rated R. So it's kind of hard to find something to take
-
your kid to without a Bob
-
Fossey level moment happening in it.
-
Yeah, yeah. But also it's like, something like, cause there was something like all that jazz cause I was gonna bring my son.
-
But I was like, something
-
like all that the jazz. It's like, there's at least the veneer of like, this is something somebody cared about. Like this is saying something. So like, I think there is, I like that about stuff. And there were so many things that I feel like I saw probably too early that affected me in a way where I was like, oh, you can do that with like a song or a film or something like that. And I think that's super valuable, you know. And I was like, you know, it was kind of crazy that this film was even playing to be honest. Like I was like
-
really surprised when it was like, oh yeah, or we can see
-
out all that jazz. I was like, oh, that's playing like
-
very specific. I had seen it. I mean, only
-
because a friend of mine had told me to
-
because we had been planning to do something musically like that.
-
I feel like there is, there's room now cause there's a lot of like concert films like, you know, like coming out. There's
-
been like Taylor Swift had one and Beyonce
-
had one and Billy just had one.
-
And I think there's room for more, what I like
-
about this is like, there's room for a more imaginative way to do
-
it, I think at this point, because now that
-
there's like a language for like, oh yeah, concert films. That's what that ending kind of was. It's like a concert film. Yeah, yeah, totally.
-
You know? Well, I mean, I, yeah.
-
No, go ahead, go ahead. Did watching this
-
movie, did that make you want to do something like about, you know, musically? Did that make you want to it like more or were you kind of like, oh, I don't know about that. No,
-
I, I mean, like, unless it's bad, I usually like, I don't know about that, but anytime I see something, I'm always like, oh yeah, what would my version be? I think
-
any person who's making stuff should think that way
-
a little bit, like why that thing worked and, you know, what would your version be? Cause it would always come out, it's always gonna come out different and it's always gonna mean something different, you know, even now, like, you know, it's interesting. I don't know what that film probably felt like in the seventies. I know what it feels like right now and it's still interesting to me cause it feels relevant. I feel like with the internet, there's a lot of questions that are just like what actually matters and like are these friends your friends and
-
will this, you know, stick around?
-
Like, you know, and how do I pivot? You know, I think a lot of these streamers are going through a hard time of like, oh yeah, like I'm supposed to grow up in front of everybody a little bit and like are these
-
people, is the chat really like my friends,
-
you know? And how do I
-
transition? And all of them wanna go from being a streamer to something else more like respected, like Kai Snats now, like he's trying to create a clothing brand and like
-
they're trying to become fashion models and stuff. So yeah,
-
I guess maybe the, yeah, they all wanna move on to something different.
-
You know, it's like especially, I just saw Clavicular just got arrested. He got arrested, I can't, I think he had like. Did he like,
-
something about like a gun or something, right?
-
Well, yeah, I know he ran over someone and nothing happened about it, but he's
-
crazy, but like, something I noticed is
-
like no one is there for him. He's like, he doesn't
-
really have any friends to,
-
he's just, he's, you know, a Bob Fossey level,
-
and when are we gonna get the Clavicular story? I know,
-
exactly. When are we
-
gonna get Timothy Chalamet smashing a hammer into his chin?
-
You know what? That's actually pretty good. I know, I actually,
-
as soon as I said it, I was like, oh, I wanna see this.
-
Yeah, especially Timothy Chalamet with his hollow, his hollow cheeks.
-
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely can play Clav. Timothy
-
Chalamet's version of this movie would just be about how much looks
-
Maxing he does when no one's looking.
-
Exactly, looking. A Clavicular movie would be, but that's what I'm saying, is like, you know, what I see a little bit, is like Bob Fossey had been doing, you know, it's kind of like, we don't get a lot of institution people like that. That's the hard part is like, you know, Bob Fossey had been working since he was a kid. The same with like someone like Buster Keaton where it's like, I've been in Vaudeville since he was literally a baby, and like just kind of understood it intrinsically because that's all they knew. And it's like, you get that. And that's why, you know, and then you start to see pattern, you start, there's pattern recognition where it's like, oh, I can make a movie and I can make people feel like this when I do this and do that. And I think that's the hard part with like a streamer where it's like, you're gonna be really good at doing, like when you're young, you're gonna learn so much about it, but it's like transferring that to something else while still streaming is so hard. It's just hard. Like it's
-
not impossible, but it's like to do it while
-
people are watching you, it's so tough. Cause like you don't get to make mistakes. And most of the best stuff comes from like learning in private, like making mistakes privately.
-
I honestly feel like that's
-
kind of why like a lot of these streamers are transitioning to like being like almost more like shock value streamers because they like, you know, like you have like a fresh and fit or something or like a some of these streamers or like podcasts that like don't kind of know how to grow. So they're gonna kind of stay in this position cause they don't really know how to learn and transition into more things
-
like real, like a real artist. Yeah. I mean, I was watching, well, Max and I, we watched the Manosphere documentary together. I don't know if you saw that. I didn't see it. It
-
was on Netflix though, right? It was on Netflix. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I
-
would say you should watch it, but it's kind of crazy cause a lot of these guys kind of reminded me of like Bob Fosse in a way where,
-
I mean, they're going out on the street. I mean, you know, maybe not
-
as respected for their art, but you know, they're
-
going out doing, doing all this crazy stuff. They're like
-
beating people up and saying all these horrible things. And then, but then you also just see them like, like they're like crying like to their mom like as well. And like they can't put
-
it on the spot. Like they're like super like emotional and insecure,
-
but they don't really have like anyone cause like it's all they know. Like they can only express, like they're, of course, like they're so, they don't know how to express their emotions. So they, they go out and just clip farm, I guess.
-
Yeah. They just, I mean, that it's kind of runoff from like the ecosystem we build with like social media. Cause the thing with like, to me with Bob Fosse though, it's like he's good at something. Like
-
that's how he gets all of his power a little
-
bit is like, you know, even that scene where she's like you, you know, even that scene where like they do the like, let's take off like kind of thing where they're doing, where it's like too much and it's like over sexualized and stuff, but it was still good. Even though it was a joke, it was like, oh, this, he, the dancing is incredible. And this guy, you know, we call it like. finding Forrester. Have you ever heard of finding Forrester? It was a movie a while ago, but anyway, there's something called like the finding Forrester effect where it's like he was like a poet, he's like a writer. But you know, the findings to Forrester effect is like he's like this kid who's supposed, who's like from the hood, you know, and he's supposed to be really good at poetry, like kind of thing. But the poems could never, it's a movie. So it's not like the guy who's writing the movie is like, I also am amazing at poetry. It's
-
like the poems that there never can be that good
-
or somebody who's like really good at like rapping in the movies, like you got to get Eminem. You can't get like, you know,
-
you can't get that's the problem
-
is like, and the thing is, is like Bob Fosse was really good at dance. A lot of these guys who
-
are like, you know, you're fresh and fit, you're whatever's date
-
aren't good at anything, but making money. You know, like just making like like clip farming, which is I'm not even going to say it's not a skill. You know, rage baiting is a skill on some level. But how do you pivot? You know, like how do you pivot before like, you know, we've I mean, in the past month, two months, we've seen like clavicular ched to build it, like all these people be
-
like, I'm hot. And now I'm in jail,
-
like kind of, I mean, honestly, it's
-
like, I've been kind of keeping up with clavicular 30 day stream, because he streams for 24 hours a day for 30 days, just I want to tune in what's going on, what's going on with him. But like the only way I mean, I watch it, it's really boring, because I mean, it's 24 hours a day. But
-
like, the, but the parts that keep people interested
-
is he has to do something insane. So like in the 30 days, he went to jail, he OD'd, he got arrested. It's like he's done so much stuff to keep people engaged. Like, besides that 24 hour streams for 30 days aren't interesting.
-
So yeah, it's like, I mean, it is kind of a skill,
-
like you are people pleasing and entertaining, but like at what cost kind of like to be to entertain as a streamer. Yeah.
-
And also like, you know, it's a
-
new way. I mean, like you guys, your your greatest asset at your age is like time. You guys have so much time, like like, and on a certain level, there's your spending time, because you just have a bunch of it to spend. And that's fun. And that's great because you're learning. But it's like, all that time you spend online, like trying to get people to watch you, you could compress into like making one song or one art project or one thing where like, all that could be compressed into doing something, you know, like a garden, like something where it's like, you can then put it out and no one needs to know what you went through. Everybody can just look at the piece and be like, man, how did that, you know, how did you do that? You know, and I think that's what's kind of that's what I see in this movie, too, where it's like, you know, he
-
he he feels like
-
at the end, he wasted time, you know, like, you know, like he he as much as like, you know, and anytime he's given a chance, like to to read up, he doesn't do what he thinks is right. And like what was cool to me also was it boiled down to like $500,000, like his friends were like, yeah,
-
it's it's 500k.
-
He's like, yeah, what I would put on it.
-
Yeah, you know, kind of speaking to your your thing about art, it's like me and James have started this podcast on war kids. When you were a kid, did you have any creative projects that you would make with your friends like movies or songs or anything like that?
-
Man, I was usually with my brother, like I always wanted to make stuff. And me and my brother and sister used to just, you know, mess around all the time. Like me and my brother used to we always joke around that we made the first memes. Like maybe you said I don't know you guys probably never even heard of this. But but there was a thing called clip art that like was like really, you know, you use it on like, you know, projects and you just use like there would be pictures that you just put into use to illustrate whatever you want. But one of them we used to just to make each other laugh, get clip art and then write things underneath. And my brother wrote
-
like it was a picture of like
-
an umpire like kind of smiling like this. And there was like a black guy in a black guy in a in a three piece suit in a white guy in a three piece suit. And they're like fighting, but he's like breaking it up, which is supposed to probably be used to like, you know, like no fighting, like any sort of disagreement
-
in the office kind of thing. But my brother wrote underneath,
-
he was like, Hey, hey, fellas, save the racism for the game. And
-
I died. I remember being like, Oh, we
-
can do this all day. And we would like
-
write each other memes to make each other
-
like, yeah. And it was my favorite. I think that was the first time I was like, Oh, like, this is valuable. Not even like, I think that's what I worry a little bit about is like with my kids and like kids in general was like, I would make myself me and my brother laugh. And I was like, this is valuable. It's not making anybody the internet doesn't exist yet. You
-
know, like it's just valuable because we're laughing
-
at it. But I used to do that. I had a talk boy. I used to make like audio movies because we couldn't afford like a camera, which it sounds so old now. Like my kids, I tell my kids, I'm like, Oh, we didn't have a camera. And they're like, you didn't have a phone. And I'm like, no, there were
-
no, none of that. Like we didn't have the kids,
-
but I used to make audio movies, like just kind of like record and I used to make songs by my sister had a recorder. So like I would like play the guitar on that thing and then record that one would I would play the record, play the guitar and then record with my talk boy doing the drums. And then I take that and then I play that and then put that in like, I just learned how to make like a bunch of tracks together, you
-
know, through boredom, sheer boredom. But
-
yeah, I used to do it all the time. Mm hmm. Yeah,
-
I mean, as like when you were a kid as well, like I know you said you love movies, dude, like what type of movies were your favorite when you were a kid? Oh, wow, that's a good
-
question. I always really loved cartoons. But when I was really young, I must have watched them up a movie like so many times. I remember I watched it so many times, but just because VHS was new. So we had like
-
the Muppet movie and I would put it in and I'd watch
-
it and I literally rewind it and then watch it again. And my mom literally once told me she was like you she put on cartoons because I was watching them up in movie too much.
-
She was like, you're watching that too much. But I
-
really loved that movie. And I think it was like, you know, Jim Henson, I was a big fan. But what movies did I really love as a kid? I really, I really loved the Great Mounds Detective. You know, a lot of the early Disney films, but you know, the class like Star Wars Back to the Future, my dad was into that Tombstone. I really loved that movie. I loved
-
Tombstone. I loved Tombstone. Yeah. And I saw it
-
with my dad. But the first movie I saw with my dad that I think like I was in a theater, he took me to see The Last Crusade, which is like a great father
-
movie. Yeah. And
-
Amblin films in general, I'm a big fan of. I just feel like, you know, those movies, oh, Stand by Me. I
-
just remember being kind of scared by Stand by Me. And
-
Stand by Me is not scary, but there's a lot of things in it that just like really kind of got to me like the leech. Like, have you guys seen it?
-
Yeah, that was one of the, like I got really scared by that
-
movie. I mean, I saw, I just
-
remember like the whole anticipation of the movie that I was going to see a dead body. Like
-
I covered my, I covered my
-
eyes. Honestly, I don't even remember if we see the dead body. I'm sure we do. We do, right?
-
No, no, I don't think you really do.
-
Well, I just remember. Well, because I literally, I remember covering my eyes during the part being like, oh, this is definitely when it's going to be because I was watching with my dad. So I have no idea, even if we see the dead body, I just kind of got left with my, my imagination,
-
which is, yeah, yeah, exactly.
-
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I dug a bigger hole for myself, imagining what the dead body was going to look like. So yeah, who
-
knows. But yeah. Yeah,
-
that movie, the thing, that
-
thing, I love the thing. Yeah. You've seen the thing and you're
-
right. That's great. Yeah, yeah. I saw it like,
-
well, I saw like, it's been like two months, but yeah, I know my dad mentioned like, when he went with you and Joel, like, like maybe like two months ago, you guys watched it there, right? He watched the thing.
-
Yeah, yeah. We acted like
-
we were you guys' age. Yeah. We're like eating popcorn
-
and like literally had like a sleep over.
-
I mean, the thing and that, that one's another movie, like kind of like Alien from, from like the 80s, I think, where it's, it's scarier than the horror movies I see today. Like, with the, with the whole dog cage thing.
-
Oh, the dog transformation thing is so, so scary.
-
Yeah. It's
-
disgusting. I mean, yeah, that was like, I'm like, how am I, how am I way more scared seeing this movie that's like 40 years old than all the horror movies I see today? But yeah, I love, love the thing. Love the last crusade. Yeah.
-
I also think it's because like horror movies now, like rely on like the realism of the horror and like, now that we've been on like social media so much like we see like a lot of that stuff like all of the time because we just have such an easy access
-
and it's kind of been doled but like when you see something like
-
the alien dog transformation it's like oh this isn't real but like it's still super scary. I think
-
what what's missing now it's like you can see any horrible crazy thing you want on the internet clearly but what the thing is like when you see that dog is like what humans you know what we still have something in us that's like I don't understand this and this is frightening to me because I don't understand a lot of the stuff online like you can be like oh that's a horrible thing but I know what it is you
-
know and I feel like there's a lot more like
-
because of the puppetry in the way that dog looks specifically in the thing you're kind of like I don't understand this which I love like using and like you said like not seeing it made it worse you know it's like the alien like an alien has no eyes and it's like worse
-
like I don't know I can't read this
-
thing you know yeah exactly I
-
guess today with like all AI and everything I mean at this point I mean a lot I see a lot of AI videos from like the security camera perspective and that's
-
stuff I mean of course like a lot of times
-
like the security camera stuff is is of like bad stuff already but then now that like it's like AI's in the mix a lot of AI videos are like shock value videos so like you you don't even know like you could just say like oh that's AI if it's something you don't understand but but back then I I guess I mean I never really experienced that but I mean you couldn't just say it was AI you just didn't understand it yeah
-
there's there's a lot I think yeah that's honestly my my least favorite part about AI is like anything you see that's like amazing you're you immediately now go to like oh that's it's probably AI which I'm like I
-
hate that like there's like very
-
little magic in the world because of the just that sentiment you
-
know yeah I mean honestly like I can't
-
remember what album I was listening to but like after I like went on the reddit thread just to see like what people are talking about about the album news like oh these are definitely AI vocals in the background and it's like yeah it's just
-
honestly it's just something his
-
voice is just a little crinkly it or something it's like doesn't it's not AI it's just like people are so quick to blame it and like also I saw that like action Bronson released because he hand draws all of his covers for all
-
of his albums and he released this new song
-
and as a joke he like released an AI album cover and people were so angry yeah
-
they were super pissed and but he obviously released a
-
real one music guys like it literally was just a joke but people get really angry about that stuff now it's a
-
very it's a very personal thing now like me and my wife were talking about it's like anytime you see a poster or like something that's like AI made now I'm like oh you didn't care about this at all yeah
-
I guess like at all like I'm like you didn't even care
-
to like prompt this better yeah that this is like bad and I like I'm almost disgusted by it like
-
yeah I mean I see there's like some by where we go to school but then I've seen like a bunch of them now where like a store uses like all of its branding not just online but like the poster does out of the store our AI and I'm like I don't know if they realize it like it would look better if they just did it themselves like doing AI it actually just makes it look way worse yeah like yeah like I don't
-
see I mean the thing like with me as I listen to like new music Friday like every Friday on the car ride to school and like I always like check out what like especially with the new rap covers look like and they're just
-
the same thing it's all AI
-
and they're just putting the people who are featuring on the song in the background of what the song is like about but it's obviously
-
AI and it's just like it
-
brings down the song that the song yeah what was the
-
last time you guys were excited by
-
something like that was happening in like media on any level or movies or you know anything I
-
mean a bully I mean probably the new Kanye album
-
that I mean
-
I got me excited just because it's like almost like Bob Fosse like level it's it's like it's because he's like you can really feel like him working through his
-
his problems through his music which makes it you
-
know it's like better like you can feel that in the movie but I don't know I feel like that was but that's like like once like if Kanye comes out with something that's just like that's automatically excitement for people like him or not but what about you James what do you think well
-
I don't know I know Max I don't you know who Dean Blunt is yeah yeah
-
yeah so yeah Dean Blunt like I really love his music
-
but like I like his like solo stuff but I especially like his group baby father like that's like my favorite that's what I listen to the most right now like I listen all that stuff and like a few like a month ago or so like they they hadn't released anything like maybe like five years or something like that it'd been a long time but yeah they made an EP so I was excited about that more I really liked I was excited for the music but I was also just excited cuz you know I I'm glad to see that like they're still making like they're still active under that cuz I just kind of discovered them more recently but then I really love them so I'm glad to see they're not like done making music so yeah
-
do you know Edward Skeletrex's you know who that is no
-
he and I think I may have said oh no in the I froze
-
yeah yeah yeah all right oh no
-
it was like it was frozen and I was about to come back and then you guys came back so I was like I just want to make sure it wasn't like you guys were like
-
oh it's my birthday tomorrow I was like no
-
but you
-
know this this guy Edward Skeletrex he released this video and in the video he's just it's just him with all of his friends like he's just he's like filming stuff with all of his friends and taking stills of his friends and I was kind of you know I was very Excited about that because it's like you don't see people like a lot of people making stuff with people that they like anymore So yeah,
-
that kind of got me excited excited too.
-
That's what was cool with like odd future. It was like, you know
-
It was such a moment. It was so nice. We're just like, oh, yeah people You know like the sole aquariums are like people who just have a thing And they're all like making stuff together and it's fun. And you know, that's what's kind of nice about that You know, there's needs to be more of that. Yeah, yeah
-
for sure Yeah, I think I think just to end this off Do you have any advice to any? young filmmakers Musicians actors or anyone out there who needs some advice right now?
-
Um Hmm I would say like, you know, your time is precious and that doesn't mean you should like Shouldn't waste it sometimes because like something I feel like Trash time is valuable like doing trash things just like being like oh because you're that's how inspiration comes that's where inspiration comes from but also like You know, like I was saying before was like you don't have to suffer Like you just have to be creative like just be creative. No one's like I'm I'm I guarantee somebody who's like Suffering is one way to do it and and sometimes it works for people, you know It's one process, but all of it is a process and I always saying like don't look for trouble The trouble will find you it has no problem finding you Really focus on being creative and like being inspired by things like watch something and be like I want to do something like that and just do your version of it Like do your version of even if you don't share it with anybody else I make songs all the time. I make things all the time that are just for me Or just for my kids or just for a friend like literally like hey I made a song just for you like
-
you know because it brings me joy
-
and I think it makes you a better Person which goes back to what you guys were saying too about like community and like Making it making stuff with a group or like making James you were saying about like oh, yeah, just being valuable to the people around you rather than seeking adoration From everybody. It's like yeah, like that really is What will change the world as a millennial? Which is like the worst Senate starter ever of all time, but We I think we kind of Did something where? We told everybody We're gonna make the world our community and that'll solve all these problems but I think that was a ruse to get information and I think the real way to come the community's work is Small like they work small and then they connect with other communities and then you can you know, we see the How each other live and I think that's that that's what's kind of important I'm like just live a real life. Don't try and like be a poll anybody's poster Just live a real life and make real cool stuff to you
-
and your group You know because that that's what
-
it used to be that I mean, I'm not saying like that's exactly what it has to be now But what it used to be was like yeah You have a group of people and people always go like man How did all these people know each other? It's like because we all like the same stuff and we all made stuff together And like it wasn't like
-
because like, you know our
-
agents put us in contact. It was because like, you know, I You know, I still work. I still like hanging and working with like all the people I met from community So
-
I was like, yeah, like because they're talented. So I think
-
yeah, just don't try and be a poster Just make cool stuff Yeah, thank
-
you so much Donald and thank you so much for being our guardian Problem,
-
yeah, I really love you guys's
-
podcast. Yes, it's a cool. I it's a cool smart idea I hope you guys I'm enjoyed the film and yeah, I'm I hope you guys keep making Making this podcast. Yeah, thank
-
you so much. Yeah. Yeah