Transcript

We just got back from seeing All That Jazz, and we got Donald Glover on the Zoom call here. How's it going, Donald? Good. How are you guys? How are you guys doing? Doing good. Yeah. Doing good. Well, what do you guys think of All That Jazz? I mean, like I said, I haven't seen it in a while, but I mean, I still really like that film. I'm really surprised that this film still works, and it's interesting. I feel like it's got real heart, but I like this film. I like this film. Honestly, I feel like it's one of the most powerful, powerful biopics I've ever seen. I just have never seen someone like – because obviously Bob Fosse, the director of this movie, he made the movie about his own life, which is – I just find it – you don't see a lot of things where they're talking about the negative parts of their life. Yeah. I mean, I brought this up before, but I was like, yeah, me and my friends were talking about Straight Outta Compton, and it's like what's funny about that movie is all the bad stuff they put on Eazy-E because he's gone. Because he's dead, it's easy to be like, well, he was the one who said all these things. Yeah, totally. We told him, slow down, Eazy. You've got to slow down. But I think that's what's kind of cool about this is that he made – anytime you have a biopic, I mean that was the main complaint probably with the Michael pic too. It's like you're not going to get into the things that are going to destroy the brand, especially if the brand is valuable. And what I think is great about this was this is kind of like a very – this is like an artistic endeavor, which I think is hard. Yeah. I mean I guess maybe you see it more with visual artists than singers or people in the entertainment industry that they'll show their own flaws, like painters and stuff like that. But yeah, I thought it was really amazing, and especially – I mean it was crazy how he really was just kind of accepted this is my life. Yeah, here it is. It was really artistic. It is crazy that he died of a heart attack. He kind of knew. He knew it. He saw it was coming. I mean it's like it's so hard to even see that negative part of yourself as a person, let alone make art as that, just to accept that and just be like, yeah, this is kind of my life right now, and I'm kind of going to choose this path to keep accelerating down it even though I have the option to change. I think you only get good – I feel like people, specifically people who make stuff, you can't get really, really good until you understand and accept what you're bad at. I think that's what you're like. I'm not good at this, and I have to work on this, and I'm never going to be – he says something in the film that was great with the woman that he's cheating with at the beginning. He's like, I can't guarantee I will make you – he said, I can't make you a great dancer. I can't guarantee I'll make you a good dancer. He's like, but I can promise if you let me, I'll make you a better dancer. And I was like, yeah, that's some real artist – I feel like thing where I feel like it was cool that he showed, yeah, you have to know what you're bad at in order to be good at it. And I was impressed by him also because I'm like, he's a dancer. He did not have to be good at directing. That's like – it's kind of crazy that he was that good at film directing. Winning a Tony and being able to direct stage performances is like, okay, if you perform on stage a lot, maybe you understand the dynamic. But as he got older, he got better at directing film, and it was very intimate. And I feel like dance is like – it can be intimate too. I mean I guess his style was very intimate because it was kind of minimal in a lot of ways. But it's a very intimate art, and he was able to hone it coming from vaudeville and kind of a showy form. Yeah, I totally remember him using like crunched up moves, and yeah, we were talking about that. It was so small, but then it also – it looked so cool, and it kind of made a statement. But then also, yeah, it's kind of insane that he was able to be such a great director because a lot of people, like myself included, think that this is an amazing film. So to be able to be that good at that many things, yeah, it's really crazy. But also to put it out at that time because he had directed Lenny. So that whole part in it when he's doing – where they're showing the stand-up comedian bit and stuff like that. People have direct analogous – there's something directly to be like this isn't a joke completely. This isn't something he completely made up, and I don't know who would do that. Yeah, I mean he maybe – I don't know this, but I would assume that he was still pretty well-liked, and then he's like, oh, yeah, I'm a great dancer, but to all my fans, I'm a horrible person. Well, it's like all of the stuff he makes also, it's not like this. He's making like Chicago and stuff. He's making kind of like upbeat stuff, and when he comes out with this, it's like, oh, this is like a right hook or something. This is like not what I expected it to be. I think he got really good at – I mean like even like Cabaret, which has like clear like dark undertones, but he got really good at like – I just – I don't know. That ending is really shocking to me. I still remember – there's so many good moments in it that are like choices you make in editing and film, which I was like, man, this is a really hard thing to do, but I think he just understood people. I think like when you're just performing in front of actual people all the time, you get kind of good at knowing kind of what people will react to, and I was really – I really liked that about it. And like just – it starts with – because I was actually talking to Danny, but I was saying like this movie is kind of almost like A Christmas Carol a little bit. Yeah, yeah. The three women in his life are like the past, present, and future. Yeah, true. Where I was like, oh, like this like – he has his ex-wife and his now girlfriend and his daughter, and they're all telling him like this is where you're going to end up if you keep messing around, and he kind of – the whole movie clearly like is flirting with that, and he's just like I just want people's adoration. And that first scene – also what's cool to me in that first scene is like there's so many different types of people. I don't see – like if there's a group of people in a movie now, they don't look as disparate as the people at the beginning of this movie to me. I just feel like I just saw so many different types. Like you never see anymore like a 28- or 29-year-old balding man. Like you just don't see. Yeah, yeah. Especially trying out for like the play. That's not how you typically think of. I mean you said this interesting thing when we were at the theater about Bob Fosse's – how he's impacted dance. You compared it to trap music. Can you like tell me a little bit more about that? I was just like – I just felt like it was – like trap music lyrically I feel like is like impressionistic, but sonically it like kind of boiled down the parts that you need of sound. It's like a very, very low sound, a very, very high sound. It's kind of like – I mean to me like it's like dancehall. My brother always says like dancehall is like the best music because it's the simplest ingredients. You just get good ingredients. Like with a cake, all you need is like the egg, the flour, the milk, and vanilla. And like if those ingredients are good, the cake is going to be good. You don't need anything else. And that's how I feel like trap music is. It's like if you have a good melody and an idea and a good – like in the voice and you have the snare and the bass and the hi-hat, it'll be good. And I felt like he kind of – because of his vaudeville, he kind of understood growing up. He's like I'm going to do like very minimal movements. Like I'm going to do very minimal things when like ballet is all about out and out and out and getting big. And he really like brought it in and made it like modern. He's like a very – I mean he was taking modern cues clearly. But it was interesting enough that like Michael Jackson like was like oh, that. Like I'll do that, which I was just like –

Yeah, like I think he did, you couldn't really escape that kind of dance style for a minute because he just had popularized it so much. And I feel like you still kind of see it in a lot of things, like the N-word and the like kind of this and stuff like that. I just loved how like it's kind of small it is. It's not trying to make them bigger. It's trying to actually bring you in. It's like intimate, you know? Yeah. I mean, we were watching a dance show at our school like two weeks ago. And then, yeah, when I was watching this movie, the dance kind of reminded me of that, like all the contemporary dances and the contemporary club. It was very like intimate. And I was like, oh, yeah, clearly it kind of comes from that Bob Fosse kind of style. And also, I mean, when Bob Fosse was like alive, I feel like for a while he was definitely, he was like kind of the man in the dance world. So that even kind of furthers how kind of crazy it is that he would make this about himself when he was so successful. It's not like he was canceled or something like that. So I don't know. It's interesting. Like I would love to hear you guys' thoughts because it's like, you know, from my point of view, it's a little bit like, you know, that sort of movie. Yeah, no one would make it now because I think, you know, he was like, you know, people liked his art. There really wasn't a mechanism back then to quote unquote cancel somebody. You know, like people like knew, like he says it in the thing. He's like, yeah, I'm sleeping with these like, you know, dancers and all this kind of stuff. And I'm like, that wasn't, there was a lot more separating the artist from the art back then. But also there wasn't really like, you know, it was just a different time. So like I want to know like how this film probably feels to you guys because looking at it, it's like, yeah, like I'm trying to think of just somebody like, you know, if Timothee Chalamet made a movie like this right now, he's like, I'm going to show you all this stuff. Like how do you feel like it would be perceived even? Well, I mean. Brave or just like career suicide? Specifically with Timothee Chalamet, I feel like he kind of went too far off of the deep end with his unlikableness when he was playing the Marty Supreme character. So it's like if he came out with a movie like that, almost like, have you ever seen that movie I'm Still Here? It was. Who was in that? I'm trying to remember. Is that the one from like last year? What's the guy's name? What's it about? Because I do know the title. It's about this actor. I can't remember his name, but he basically pretends that he's quitting his career to become a rapper. Oh, Joaquin Phoenix. Yeah, Joaquin Phoenix. Yeah, he's pretending his life to become a rapper and he comes out with this movie that almost feels like a documentary where he's just doing all this awful stuff. And like I was kind of thinking about, you know, that movie and people like being like, I mean, that was also still kind of a different time because it was farther back then. But I feel like now I don't think that it would be received well. I think it would be like, oh, it's like this is just giving us an excuse not to like you kind of. Yeah. What about you, James? What do you think? I mean, people already were like hating Timothee Chalamet just for his, you know, just for his kind of promotion of Marty Supreme. They will, you know, of course, he's playing a character. And then he was already kind of getting a lot of hate for that. So if he made a movie about him doing a bunch of horrible stuff and it was like a biopic like he or not about. Yeah. Like he and everyone knew that he actually did it. I mean, I don't know if I would be like, oh, I necessarily hate Timothee Chalamet. I mean, like I probably watch the movie just like this. I don't hate Bob Fosse, but I feel like in today's day and age, there definitely be. Yeah, I don't think it'd be as well received. He definitely. Yeah. I mean, he'd have a. Yeah, he'd have a problem. Yeah. I think there is something to also. I mean, just monoculture, the way monoculture worked or how like, you know, it's the highs were really high. Like Michael Jordan did certain things. You had never seen anything like it. And he just didn't feel replaceable. And that's part of what plays into it, too. It's like these people are able to do this and explore this because it's like very uncharted territory and there's nobody doing anything like that. You know, and I think the world now people feel replaceable because there's just so many access to find like there's another person with with this kind of hair who sings a little bit like that, you know, and it's. Yeah, it makes it harder for people to, I think, explore their own their own thing, you know, and, you know, and there's a higher risk to failing. But also it's like the question becomes like, can you be good enough? Like, you know, not even just I mean, technically, are you good? But like, you know, that's the thing about art is a little bit is it's all it's objective. So, like, how do you know if somebody is like, I'm good enough to get away with this? Like, I'm good enough to like even I mean, like not even I'm saying like in your personal life. I mean, just this piece of art. Is it good enough to get away with the fact that it's hard to like watch or like all that kind of stuff? You know, that's what I think is kind of also in the film a little bit where like his ex-wife is like, it's the best art you've ever done. Like, you know, but it didn't feel. Yeah, it didn't feel bad to me. Like, it didn't feel like this guy's patting himself on the back. It felt more like I have to give up everything in order to be number one. And is that worth it? Because I personally am not I don't believe I don't believe you have to suffer for your art. I think you have to work hard, but I'm not a big like, yeah, you got to be you got to cut off your left ear, man. You know, people got to know that this is not a game. Like, I'm like, it is, you know, just work hard and discover stuff and be creative. But I think there is a part of being famous and a part of celebrity that is also like, you know, not you. You're giving up something. And he was definitely like felt like this character at the very least was addicted to adoration. Yeah. I mean, it also felt like he's such like a workaholic almost that it's like he's just always wanting to do his work. But he's given up everything for his work, basically. But he's like spent so much time with his work that he doesn't even like his job anymore, basically. He's like, so it's like he has nothing in life that he's even like looking forward to. Yeah, exactly. And then also, I feel like what you just said kind of brings up, you know, something that I thought is interesting. I feel like today a lot of like the person gets canceled, like people don't like the person anymore. But then everyone still listens to their music or watches their movies and stuff like, you know, D4VD. I mean, he's, you know, going to jail for murder. But his music is still super popular. And like all these people, like they get canceled, but like no one's going to stop watching Dune. So that's also kind of interesting. Yeah, that is. It's like people aren't necessarily because also I feel like, you know, some people I don't want to say it as a blanket statement, but also there is sign of, you know, some good in separating the artist from the art. Because, you know, just because someone's a Republican or someone's a Democrat doesn't mean that the other side can't appreciate their art. Like that's a good part about art in general is that kind of everyone can hopefully enjoy it regardless. That's what I've kind of always liked about it was that it connects people. And you need to, in order for me anyway, in order for art or some project to work, you have to put a piece of yourself in it. Like you have to see a reflection in it. So like even if you don't like the person, you can be like, oh, like this thing touched me. Like this thing or like this thing I understand or that sounded cool. And at the very least, I can learn from that and use that to do what I think is cool or what I think is right. Like I think that's what's kind of necessary a little bit. And I feel like, I don't know, like connection is kind of – because what was interesting about that movie too is like they show so many times he woke up and just like said like it's showtime, like kind of thing. Like he's like it's showtime. And I'm like this person is putting on a show every day. Like he's not really connecting with anybody. Like he's not – it's all like a show to get the things that he needs that are kind of not that – not as deep as he wants. His best relationship in the movie is with death. Yeah, yeah. He's flirting with death the entire

I don't really want to live. I'm just kind of fleeting, but I just want to do what I do now, but I don't really care about the outcome. He's not, yeah. Well, that's what I think death represented in the movie because he was obviously still alive when he was making the movie. So it was kind of like what I felt is that death and life was like, death was am I going to keep going down the path that I'm on and keep amplifying and partying and doing all these things, or I can choose life and kind of change my ways. So that's what I kind of felt with the life and death symbolism too. Yeah. There might also be some like, you know, I think this word gets tossed around too much, but like some slight, like, you know, like narcissism. And I don't mean that in like, oh yeah, he's an evil narcissist. I mean, just like in an artistic way of just like, I want to know what it's like when I die. You know, like I want to see it, you know, like he's kind of like where he's, he wanted to see what it would be like, how people felt, how, you know, like, and you only get to do that if you make that happen, you know, like, and I think there's part of that too. Well, I think there's a line in the movie at the end where they're like, when he's doing the whole dance thing, the whole number at the end where he's like, oh, look at your girlfriend. She's moved on. She's with another guy. So it's like, it's almost, he spent all his life not making good relationships. It's like when he dies, he can't expect for anyone to, you know, dwell and remember him for so long like that. Yeah. Every, all of the, yeah, he was like in the audience and he's, that guy's like, this must've caused a fortune. Like all of them, all the relationships are kind of like not great. And the guy was like, yeah. And you know, the Ben Vereen characters like expressing like, yeah, like he was never anybody's friend and like, you know, like all these kinds of things where he's like, I'm, I got really good at playing the game, but like, am I, am I supposed to want more? Like, yeah. Cause it is interesting that, that whole section at the end, like the dances, the three dances, I was like, you know, he's like, she's singing like nobody wants you when you're old and gray. Like, it's like, he's still chasing something that is naturally fleeting. You know, like all these things naturally are leave. And all of his relationships, like clearly he's able to make an impression on a person and kind of captivate them, but only for like a short moment because he's, he's not able to like, you know, put, to have a meaningful relationship where someone will like actually care about him after he's dead. It's more just like, he has a lot of charisma and, but he's not able to kind of bridge the gap between his love of dance and his able to like actually make a meaningful connection. It seems like. It might be, you know, it is like, I've read about like about Prince and like Prince felt way more comfortable in the studio making music. He's like, he didn't feel comfortable talking to people or like being around people. Like his engineer talks about like, he just felt so comfortable making music. And that's what this movie kind of felt like where it's like, you know, he clearly also had the tools to make movies that didn't have, you know, dance in them necessarily. But he was like, this is how I can express myself really well. And yeah, that last, that, that last scene, like there's very few movies where the last 10 minutes, 15 minutes, you want to see like a dance number and be like kind of captivated and like shocked. I mean, like, cause that ending always shocks me. That ending always feels like, man, like, like, I don't know. Like I really like it. Cause I'm just like, it is shocking, even though you kind of know what's going to happen. But I was like, I can't believe I'm sitting here with my mom watching this, but it was a great movie. I do like that movie. Yeah. I have, I always like, I'll watch a lot of movies with my dad, like before we go to bed, but he always falls asleep, like really, really fast. And then I just ended up watching the whole thing normally, but he falls asleep. But then like a couple months ago, I chose to watch.

This movie that I just heard about, like I didn't know at all what it was about. And then for like straight like 30 minutes, it was just literally just like scenes of this couple having sex for probably like 35 minutes. And then I was just like trying to not make any noise, just like sitting there like in the corner of the couch. And then I got up to look over at my dad and then he was just fast asleep. And then I was like, oh, thank God. Yeah, and then it's really, that's the great part about how easily he falls asleep because he's been asleep for a lot of moments that could have been really awkward. I feel like, you know, it's interesting because like, you know, you guys have more access to a lot of media, but it was very, it was, I saw like War of the Roses with my parents. Like I saw Delirious. Like there were so many things, I think in the 80s, where that would be by today's standards, very inappropriate to have a kid around. But people just didn't see, like think about it. There's this video you should find on like YouTube where they like interview people after seeing Alien when it just came out. Have you seen that one? I saw the dad who took his two kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the kid is clearly shell-shocked. Like clearly shell-shocked. It's like, yeah, this is a super intense movie to show like a 10-year-old. I mean that scene where the alien crawls out of the stomach, like I watched that probably like a year or two ago. I mean that's still like, you know, way more disgusting than a lot of movies I've seen today. Like, yeah. It's way more visceral. And the best part about that to me is like the dad goes like, he's like, the interviewer is like, why'd you bring your son to this? And he goes, I just wanted to show him something and be like, yeah, something like that could happen. Like that's my favorite part. It's like he didn't even quell his fears. He's like, that could happen tonight. That alien could bust out of your stomach tonight. That's going to make him so much more scared, yeah. Yeah. I can't believe that. No, yeah. But yeah. I think it's hard because like movies play such a – like especially theaters like play a big role in the culture. And now it's kind of like all movies are basically rated R, so it's kind of hard to find something to take your kid to without a Bob Fosse-level moment happening in it. Yeah, yeah. But the one – oh, yeah. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Did watching this movie, did that make you want to do something like about, you know, musically? Did that make you want to do it like more or were you kind of like, oh, I don't know about that? No. I mean like unless it's bad, I usually like I'm not – I don't know about that. But anytime I see something, I'm always like, oh, yeah, what would my version be? I think any person who's making stuff should think that way a little bit, like why that thing worked and, you know, what would your version be? Because it would always come out – it's always going to come out different and it's always going to mean something different, you know. Even now, like, you know, it's interesting. I don't know what that film probably felt like in the 70s. I know what it feels like right now, and it's still interesting to me because it feels relevant. I feel like with the internet, there's a lot of questions of just like what actually matters and like are these friends your friends and will this, you know, stick around? And how do I pivot? I think a lot of these streamers are going through a hard time of like, oh, yeah, like I'm supposed to grow up in front of everybody a little bit and like are these people – is the chat really like my friends? And how do I transition? And all of them want to go from being a streamer to something else more like respected, like Kai Sinats now. He's trying to create a clothing brand and like they're trying to become fashion models and stuff. So, yeah, I guess maybe they all want to move on to something different. You know, it's like especially – I just saw Clavicular just got arrested. He got arrested. I think he had like – Did he like – something about like a gun or something, right? Well, yeah, I know he ran over someone and nothing happened about it. But he's crazy. But like something I noticed is like no one is there for him. He's like – he doesn't really have any friends to – he's just – he's, you know, a Bob Fosse level. When are we going to get the Clavicular story? I know, exactly. When are we going to get Timothee Chalamet smashing a hammer into his chin? You know what? That's actually pretty good. I know. I actually – as soon as I said it, I was like, oh, I want to see this. Yeah, especially Timothee Chalamet with his hollow cheeks. Yeah, yeah. Definitely can play a collab. Timothee Chalamet's version of this movie would just be about how much looks maxing he does when no one's looking. When no one's looking. A Clavicular movie would be – but that's what I'm saying is like, you know, what I see a little bit is like Bob Fosse had been doing – you know, it's kind of like we don't get a lot of institution people like that. That's the hard part is like, you know, Bob Fosse had been working since he was a kid. The same with like someone like Buster Keaton where it's like been in vaudeville since he was literally a baby and like just kind of understood it intrinsically because that's all they knew. And it's like you get that and that's why, you know, and then you start to see pattern. There's pattern recognition where it's like, oh, I can make a movie and I can make people feel like this when I do this and do that. And I think that's the hard part with like a streamer where it's like you're going to be really good at doing like – when you're young, you're going to learn so much about it. But it's like transferring that to something else while still streaming is so hard. It's just hard. Like it's not impossible, but it's like to do it while people are watching you, it's so tough because like you don't get to make mistakes. And most of the best stuff comes from like learning in private, like making mistakes privately. I honestly feel like that's kind of why like a lot of these streamers are transitioning to like being like almost more like shock value streamers too because they like – you know, like you have like a fresh and fit or something or like some of these like streamers or like podcasts that like don't kind of know how to grow. So they're going to kind of stay in this position because they don't really know how to learn and transition into more things like a real artist almost. Yeah, I mean I was watching – well, Max and I, we watched the Manosphere documentary together. I don't know if you saw that. I didn't see it. It was on Netflix though, right? It was on Netflix. Yeah, I mean I would say you should watch it, but it's kind of crazy because a lot of these guys kind of reminded me of like Bob Fosse in a way where – I mean they're going out on the street. I mean maybe not as respected for their art, but they're going out doing all this crazy stuff. They're like beating people up and saying all these horrible things. But then you also just see them like they're like crying like to their mom like as well, and like they can't be put on the spot. Like they're like super like emotional and insecure, but they don't really have like anyone because like it's all they know. Like they can only – like of course like they're so – they don't know how to express their emotions, so they go out and just clip farm I guess. Yeah, they're just – I mean it's kind of run off from like the ecosystem we've built with like social media. Because the thing with like to me with Bob Fosse though is like he's good at something. Like that's how he gets all of his power a little bit is like even in that scene where she's like you – even the scene where like they do the like let's take off like kind of thing where they're doing – where it's like too much and it's like over-sexualized and stuff. But it was still good. Even though it was a joke, it was like, oh, this – the dancing is incredible, and this guy – we call it like –

Finding Forrester. Have you guys ever heard of Finding Forrester? It was a movie a while ago. But anyway, there's something called the Finding Forrester effect where he was like a poet, like a writer. But the Finding Forrester effect is like he's this kid who's from the hood, and he's supposed to be really good at poetry, that kind of thing. But the poems could never – it's a movie. So it's not like the guy who's writing the movie is like, I also am amazing at poetry. It's like the poems, there never can be that good. Or somebody who's really good at rapping in a movie is like, you got to get Eminem. You can't get like – that's the problem. And the thing is, is like Bob Fosse was really good at dance. A lot of these guys who are like your Fresh and Fitzy or whatever, they aren't good at anything but making money, like just making – like clip farming, which is – I'm not even going to say it's not a skill. Rage baiting is a skill on some level, but how do you pivot? How do you pivot before – in the past month, two months, we've seen like Cavicular, Chud the Builder. Like all these people be like, I'm hot, and now I'm in jail. Like kind of like – I mean honestly. The pivot is so hard. It's like I've been kind of keeping up with Cavicular's 30-day stream because he streams for 24 hours a day for 30 days. Just I want to tune in what's going on with him. But like the only way – I mean I watch it. It's really boring because I mean it's 24 hours of his day. But the parts that keep people interested is he has to do something insane. So like in the 30 days, he went to jail. He OD'd. He got arrested. It's like he's done so much stuff to keep people engaged. Like besides that, 24-hour streams for 30 days aren't interesting. So it's like –

It's kind of a skill, like you are people-pleasing and entertaining, but like at what cost kind of like to be, to entertain as a streamer. Yeah. And also like, you know, it's a new way. I mean, like you guys, your greatest asset at your age is like time. You guys have so much time. And on a certain level, you're spending time because you just have a bunch of it to spend. And that's fun and that's great because you're learning. But it's like all that time you spend online like trying to get people to watch you, you could compress into like making one song or one art project or one thing. All that could be compressed into doing something, you know, like a garden, like something where it's like you can then put it out and no one needs to know what you went through. Everybody can just look at the piece and be like, man, how did that, you know, how did you do that? You know, and I think that's what's kind of, that's what I see in this movie too, where it's like, you know, he feels like at the end he wasted time, you know, like, you know, like he, as much as like, you know, and anytime he's given a chance like to re-up, he doesn't do what he thinks is right. And like what was cool to me also was it boiled down to like $500,000. Like his friends were like, it's 500K is like what I would put on it. You know, kind of speaking to your thing about art, it's like me and James have started this podcast on War Kids. When you were a kid, did you have any creative projects that you would make with your friends, like movies or songs or anything like that? Man, it was usually with my brother. Like I always wanted to make stuff. And me and my brother and sister used to just, you know, mess around all the time.

Me and my brother, we always joke around that we made the first memes. You probably never even heard of this, but there was a thing called clip art that was really, you'd use it on projects. There would be pictures that you just put into use to illustrate whatever you were wanting. But one of them, we used to just to make each other laugh, get clip art, and then write things underneath. And my brother wrote, there was a picture of an umpire smiling like this, and there was a black guy in a three-piece suit and a white guy in a three-piece suit, and they're fighting, but he's breaking it up, which is supposed to probably be used to like, no fighting, any sort of disagreement in the office kind of thing. But my brother wrote underneath, he was like, hey, hey, fellas, save the racism for the game. And I died laughing. I remember being like, oh, we can do this all day. And we would just write each other memes to make each other laugh. And it was my favorite. I think that was the first time I was like, oh, this is valuable. I think that's what I worry a little bit about is with my kids and kids in general. I would make myself, me and my brother laugh, and I was like, this is valuable. It's not making any money. The internet doesn't exist yet. It's just valuable because we're laughing at it. But I used to do that. I had a Talkboy. I used to make audio movies because we couldn't afford a camera, which sounds so old now. I tell my kids, I'm like, oh, we didn't have a camera. And they're like, you didn't have a phone? And I'm like, no, there were none of that. We didn't have a camera. But I used to make audio movies just kind of like recording. And I used to make songs by, my sister had a recorder. So I would play the guitar.

And then record, I would play the guitar and then record with my Talkboy doing the drums. And then I'd take that and then I'd play that and then put that in like, I just learned how to make like a bunch of tracks together, you know, through boredom, sheer boredom. But yeah, I used to do it all the time. And then as like when you were a kid as well, like I know you said you love movies. Do you like what type of movies were your favorite when you were a kid? Wow, that's a good question. I always really loved cartoons, but when I was really young, I must have watched The Muppet Movie like so many times. I remember I watched it so many times. I would just, because VHS was new. So we had like The Muppet Movie and I would put it in and I'd watch it and I'd literally rewind it and then watch it again. And my mom literally once told me, she was like, she put on cartoons because I was watching The Muppet Movie too much. She was like, you're watching that too much. But I really loved that movie. And I think it was like, you know, Jim Henson, I was a big fan. But what movies did I really love as a kid? I really loved The Great Mouse Detective. You know, a lot of the early Disney films, but you know, like Star Wars, Back to the Future. My dad was into that. Tombstone. I really loved that movie. I love Tombstone. I loved Tombstone when I saw it with my dad. But the first movie I saw with my dad that I think like I was in a theater, he took me to see The Last Crusade, which is like a great, I guess, father-son movie. And Amblin Films in general, I'm a big fan of. I just feel like, you know, those movies. Oh, Stand By Me. I just remember being kind of scared by Stand By Me. And Stand By Me is not scary, but there's a lot of things in it that just like really

It kind of got to me. Like the leech. Have you guys seen it? Yeah. I got really scared by that movie. Really? I just remember the whole anticipation of the movie that I was going to see a dead body. I covered my eyes. Honestly, I don't even remember if we see the dead body. I'm sure we do. We do, right? No, I don't think you really do. Well, I just remember. Well, because I literally remember covering my eyes during the part being like, oh, this is definitely when it's going to be because I was watching with my dad. So I have no idea even if we see the dead body. I just kind of got left with my thoughts. With your imagination, which is worse. Yeah, exactly. I dug a bigger hole for myself imagining what the dead body was going to look like. So who knows? But yeah. Yeah, that movie. The Thing. The Thing. I love The Thing, yeah. You've seen The Thing and you're all right? Yeah, I saw it like, well, I saw like, it's been like two months. But yeah, I know my dad mentioned like when he went with you and Joel, like maybe like two months ago, you guys watched it there, right? We watched The Thing. Yeah, yeah. We acted like we were you guys' age. Yeah. We're like eating popcorn and like literally had like a sleepover. I mean, The Thing, that one's another movie like kind of like Alien from like the 80s, I think, where it's scarier than the horror movies I see today. Like with the whole dog cage thing. Oh, The Dog transformation thing is so scary. Yeah, it's so scary. It's disgusting. I mean, yeah, that was like, how am I way more scared seeing this movie that's like 40 years old than all the horror movies I see today? But yeah, I love The Thing. I love The Last Crusade, yeah. I also think it's because like horror movies now like rely on like the realism of the horror. And like now that we've been on

Like social media so much, like we see like a lot of that stuff like all the time because we used to have such an easy access and it's kind of been dulled. But like when you see something like the alien dog transformation, it's like, oh, this isn't real, but like it's still super scary. I think what's missing now, it's like you can see any horrible, crazy thing you want on the internet clearly. But what the thing is, like when you see that dog, it's like what humans, you know, we still have something in us that's like, I don't understand this. And this is frightening to me because I don't understand. A lot of the stuff online, like you can be like, oh, that's a horrible thing, but I know what it is, you know. And I feel like there's a lot more like because of the puppetry and the way that dog looks specifically in the thing, you're kind of like, I don't understand this, which I love. Like using and like you said, like not seeing it made it worse. You know, it's kind of like the alien, like an alien has no eyes and it's like worse. Like I don't know, I can't read this thing, you know. Yeah, exactly. But I guess today with like all AI and everything, I mean, at this point, I mean, I see a lot of AI videos from like the security camera perspective. And that stuff, I mean, of course, like a lot of times like the security camera stuff is of like bad stuff already. But then now that like it's like AI is in the mix, a lot of AI videos are like shock value videos. So like you don't even know, like you could just say like, oh, that's AI if it's something you don't understand. But back then, I guess, I mean, I never really experienced that. But I mean, you couldn't just say it was AI. You just didn't understand it. Yeah, there's a lot. I think, yeah, that's honestly my least favorite part about AI is like anything you see that's like amazing, you immediately now go to like, oh, that's probably AI, which I'm like, I hate that.

There's like very little magic left in the world because of just that sentiment. Yeah, I mean, honestly, I can't remember what album I was listening to, but after I went on the Reddit thread just to see what people were talking about about the album, and it was like, oh, these are definitely AI vocals in the background. And it's like, it's just honestly, it just sounds like his voice is just a little crinkly or something. It's not AI. It's just like people are so quick to blame it. And also, I saw that Action Bronson released, because he hand draws all of his covers for all of his albums, and he released this new song. And as a joke, he released an AI album cover, and people were so angry. Super pissed. Yeah, they were super pissed. But he obviously released a real one, but he was like, guys, it literally was just a joke. But people get really angry about that stuff now. It's a very personal thing now. Me and my wife were talking about it. It's like anytime you see a poster or something that's AI made now, I'm like, oh, you didn't care about this at all. Yeah. At all. I'm like, you didn't even care to prompt this better, because I can tell that this is bad, and I'm almost disgusted by it. Yeah. I mean, especially I see there's some by where we go to school, but then I've seen a bunch of them now where a store uses all of its branding, not just online, but the posters outside of the store are AI. And I'm like, I don't know if they realize that it would look better if they just did it themselves. Doing AI, it just makes it look way worse. I feel like, yeah. I don't see. I mean, the thing with me is I listen to New Music Friday every Friday on the car ride to school, and I always check out, especially with the new rap.

covers look like, and they're just the same thing. It's all AI, and they're just putting the people who are featuring on the song in the background of what the song is about, but it's obviously AI. And it's just like it brings down the song. The song. What was the last time you guys were excited by something that was happening in media on any level, or movies, or anything? I mean, a bully, probably, like the new Kanye album.

I mean, that got me excited just because it's almost like Bob Fosse level. It's because you can really feel him working through his problems through his music, which makes it better. You can feel that in the movie. But I don't know. I feel like that was – but that's like once – if Kanye comes out with something, that's just like – that's automatically excitement for people like him or not. But what about you, James? What do you think?

Well, I don't know, Donald, I know Max, do you know who Dean Blunt is? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, Dean Blunt, like I really love his music, but I like his like solo stuff, but I especially like his group Babyfather, like that's like my favorite, that's what I listen to the most right now, like I listen to all that stuff, and like a few, like a month ago or so, like they hadn't released anything in like maybe like five years or something like that, it'd been a long time, but yeah, they made an EP, so I was just

I was excited for the music, but I was also just excited because I'm glad to see that they're still active under that because I just kind of discovered them more recently, but then I really love them. So I'm glad to see they're not done making music. Do you know who Edward Skeletrax is? Do you know who that is? No. And I think I may have said, oh no, in the middle of it. I froze. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll cut that out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. I was like, oh no, it was like it was frozen. I was about to come back and then you guys came back. So I was like, I just want to make sure it wasn't like you guys were like, oh, it's my birthday tomorrow. And I was like, oh no. But you know, this guy, Edward Skeletrex, he released this video. And in the video, it's just him with all of his friends. He's like filming stuff with all of his friends and taking stills of his friends. And I was kind of, you know, I was very excited about that because it's like you don't see people like a lot of people making stuff with people that they like anymore. So that kind of got me excited, excited too. That's what was cool with like Odd Future. It was like, you know, it was such a moment. It was so nice. We were just like, oh yeah, people, you know, like the Soul Aquarians are like people who just have a thing. And they're all like making stuff together and it's fun. And, you know, that's what's kind of nice about that. You know, there needs to be more of that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I think just to end this off, do you have any advice to any young filmmakers, musicians, actors or anyone out there who needs some advice right now? I would say like, you know, your time is precious. And that doesn't mean you should like shouldn't waste it sometimes because like I feel like trash time is valuable. Like doing trash things just like being like, oh, because that's how inspiration comes. That's where inspiration comes from. But also like, you know, like I was saying before, it's like you don't have to suffer. Like you just have to be creative. Like just be creative. No one's like I guarantee somebody who's like suffering is one way to do it. And sometimes it works for people. You know, it's

One process, but all of it is a process. And I always say, like, don't look for trouble. Trouble will find you. It has no problem finding you. Really focus on being creative and, like, being inspired by things. Like, watch something and be like, I want to do something like that. And just do your version of it. Like, do your version. Even if you don't share it with anybody else. I make songs all the time. I make things all the time that are just for me or just for my kids or just for a friend. Like, literally, like, hey, I made a song just for you. Like, you know, because it brings me joy. And I think it makes you a better person, which goes back to what you guys were saying, too, about, like, community and, like, making stuff with a group or, like, making, James, you were saying about, like, oh, yeah, just being valuable to the people around you rather than seeking adoration from everybody. It's like, yeah, like, that really is what will change the world. As a millennial, which is, like, the worst sentence starter ever of all time. But we, I think we kind of did something where we told everybody we're going to make the world our community and that'll solve all these problems. But I think that was a ruse to get information. And I think the real way to communities work is small. Like, they work small and then they connect with other communities. And then you can, you know, we see how each other live. And I think that's what's kind of important. I'm like, just live a real life. Don't try and, like, be anybody's poster. Just live a real life and make real cool stuff to you and your group.

You know, because that's what it used to be. I mean, I'm not saying like that's exactly what it has to be now. But what it used to be was like, yeah, you'd have a group of people and people always go like, man, how did all these people know each other? It's like, because we all like the same stuff and we all made stuff together. And like, it wasn't like, because like, you know, our agents put us in contact. It was because like, you know, I still work, I still like hanging and working with like all the people I met from community. So it's like, yeah, like, because they're talented. So I think, yeah, just don't try and be a poster. Just make cool stuff. Yeah. Thank you so much, Donald. And thank you so much for being our guardian. No problem. I really love you guys' podcast. It's such a cool, it's a cool, smart idea. I hope you guys enjoyed the film. And yeah, I hope you guys keep making this podcast. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah.